乔纳森·沃泽尔博士

Dr. Jonathan Woetzel

麦肯锡全球研究院院长，麦肯锡咨询公司上海分公司资深合伙人。他领导了对中国、亚洲、全球经济及商业趋势的研究。他帮助许多地区和城市实现了持续的经济增长并支持了中国企业转变为全球领导者。  

Dr. Jonathan Woetzel is Director of the McKinsey Global Institute and Senior Partner with McKinsey & Company based in Shanghai. He leads research on China, Asia, and global economic and business trends. He helps cities and regions create sustainable growth and supports the transformation of Chinese companies into global leaders.

记者：彭斯越

Reporter: PENG Siyue

Q2

记者: 作为旨在制定和实施应对中国城市化挑战的解决方案的“城市中国计划”(清华大学和麦肯锡的合资企业)的共同主席，你们共同推出了城市可持续性指数(通过基本需求、资源利用率、环境健康、建筑环境和对可持续性的承诺五个主要方面反映城市可持续性) ——该指数的优势和劣势是什么？

Reporter: As the co-chair of the Urban China Initiative (a joint venture of Tsinghua University and McKinsey) that aims to develop and implement solutions to China’s urbanization challenges, you collectively introduced the Urban Sustainability Index (reflecting on urban sustainability via five primary dimensions of basic needs, resource efficiency, environmental health, built environment, commitment to sustainability) – what are the strength and weakness of the Index?  

乔纳森·沃泽尔: 城市可持续性指数是为了衡量经济发展的质量。指数中包含的因素需要与经济发展进行比较，例如人均GDP。它反映了一个地区在一定数量的经济发展中，无论是好是坏，所获得的社会和环境利益。该指数有望通过多个方面反映出受益情况。该指数定义了各种方面的受益情况，例如，人均医生人数、教室数量、空气和水的污染物水平，以及公共基础设施如公共交通的质量和可用性。还有一些新的好处，如数字信号普及度。随着时间的推移，所有这些都有助于生活质量的提高。

Jonathan Woetzel: The Urban Sustainability Index measures the quality of the economic development. The factors incorporated in the Index need to be compared against economic development, such as GDP per capita. It reflects how much social and environment benefit a region is achieving, better or worse, for a given amount of economic development. The indicator hopefully reflects the benefits via multiple dimensions. The Index defines benefits as for example, the number of doctor per capita, the number of classrooms, the level of pollutants in the air and the water, and the quality and availability of public infrastructure such as mass transit. There are also new benefits such as digital penetration. All these contribute to the quality of life over time. 

Q4

记者: 是什么因素导致中国对全球人才吸引力降低？如何改变现状？ 

Reporter:  What are the factors that lead to China to be a less attractive place to global talents? What can be done to change the status quo? 

乔纳森·沃泽尔: 全球的人才很难留在中国定居。他们的签证限制了他们在这里定居和工作的时间。他们获得社会福利的机会有限，孩子在这里接受教育的机会更少。现行制度阻止了人才来到中国。中国可以改变它——它的政府和公司可以改变它。如果政府愿意，这些是问题可以得到解决的，这些变化对于吸引外国人才和专家来中国非常重要。 

Jonathan Woetzel: It is hard for global talents to stay and settle down in China. Their visa has restrictions on how long they get to stay and to work here. Their accessibility to social welfare is limited, and their kids have less options for education opportunities here. The current system prevents talents to come to China. China can change it – its government and companies can change it. Those issues could be addressed if the administration wants to, and these changes are important to attract foreign talents and experts to China. 

Q6

记者:公众情绪对人工智能的似乎很紧张，很多人开始担心人工智能不久后就能完全接管他们的职业和工作。您如何看待公众情绪？

Reporter: It seems like the public sentiment toward AI is stressful and concerning as many have started to worry about how long will it take for AI to completely take over their professional responsibilities. How do you look at the public sentiment? 

乔纳森·沃泽尔: 人工智能是增强人类能力的一种方式。就是说你有可以停止用老式的方式做事潜在可能。你不再需要做那些重复的工作，你会有更多的自由时间做一个人。你打算如何利用空闲时间是人工智能提供的机会。人工智能是一种选择，市场经济中的客户将决定他们是想利用人工智能还是保留传统方法。许多无聊和重复工作的消失将是必然的。人们必须更有创造力才能保持竞争力。有些人会对此感到自信，有些人不会。随着时间的推移，我们将会发现人们创造力的极限。

Jonathan Woetzel: AI is a way of augmenting human capacity. It is saying that you have the potential to stop doing something in an old-fashioned way. You no longer need to do work in a repetitive manner, and you have more free time to be human. What are you going to do with your free time is the opportunity AI presents. AI is a choice. Customers in a market economy will decide if they want to take advantage of AI or keep the traditional approaches. What will happen is that much of the boring and repetitive work will go away. People will have to be more creative to maintain competitive. Some will feel confident about it, others will not. Over time, we will find out how much creativity people will be able to handle. 

Q8

记者: 中国在非洲国家的存在感迅速增加，公众情绪经常反映出某种程度的担忧和惶恐。您认为这种令人惊慌的公众情绪是潜在的障碍吗？如果是这样，中国投资者如何克服公众情绪？

Reporter: China has rapidly increasing presence in African countries and frequently public sentiments reflect some level of concerning and alarming feelings. Do you see the alarming public sentiment as a potential obstacle? If so, how could Chinese investors overcome the public sentiment? 

乔纳森·沃泽尔: 非洲国家曾经是殖民地——被西方资本和传教士的影响所接管。因此，是的，以他们的角度来说，他们的担心是可以理解的；然而，没有资本就很难发展。此外，外国资本是有用的，但并不能满足他们的发展需要——只有国内资本才是真正的长期资本。因此，任何外国投资倡议要取得成功，都需要当地的贡献。这意味着应该通过与中国企业合资的形式在非洲建立伙伴关系。地方政府应该期待合资企业的出现，并制定相关的监管政策来引导外国对国内经济的影响。但是接下来就轮到中国投资者决定他们是否愿意这样做了。

Jonathan Woetzel: African countries used to be colonies – taken over by Western capital and missionary influences. Therefore, yes, there is understandable concern on their part; however, without capital, it is hard to develop. Moreover, foreign capital is useful but not sufficient – only domestic capital is truly long-term capital. So local contribution is needed for any foreign investment initiative to be successful. This means partnerships in Africa should be established via the form of joint ventures with Chinese enterprises. The local government should expect joint ventures to take place and develop relevant regulatory policies to guide foreign influence on domestic economy. But then it is up to the Chinese investor to decide if they want to do that.

Q10

记者: 您提到了中国政府为正在向非洲市场扩张的公司制定“商业责任指南”的重要性。请您预测一下在实施过程中会出现什么问题？严格政策的实施会不会对本地化产生不利影响？

Reporter: You mentioned the importance for Chinese government to establish “responsible business guidelines” for corporates who are expanding to the African market. What kind of implementation issues do you expect? Would the implementation of rigorous policies work against localization? 

乔纳森·沃泽尔: 指南旨在设定一个标准。实施方面的困难不应妨碍标准的制定。中国的监管方式应该规范结果，且必须明确哪些是不可接受的。贿赂、违反健康或安全条例的行为都不应被接受。例如，健康和安全守则的一个定义可能会这样说，以某种方式经营业务的风险会使员工面临比竞争对手更大的健康和安全风险。如果在中国，环境污染是不可接受的，那么中国公司没有理由不在国外采用同样的标准。或者是某些种类的设备和实践活动由于太过危险和肮脏不允许使用等。这又回到了执法问题上，这将取决于政府的监管和核查工作。

Jonathan Woetzel: Guidelines are intended to set a standard. The difficulties with implementation should not prevent setting standards. The Chinese regulatory approach has to be clear about what is unacceptable. It should regulate the outcome and to define what outcomes are unacceptable. Bribery should not be accepted. Violation of health or safety regulations should not be accepted. One definition of a health and safety code might be for instance, that the risks of operating business in certain way exposes employees to health and safety risks that are significantly greater than those of the competitors. If in China, environment pollution is not acceptable, then there is no reason why its companies should not adopt the same standards abroad. Some kinds of equipment and work force practice are too dangerous and dirty to be allowed. Again, it goes back to the enforcement questions, which will depend on the government’s monitoring and verification efforts.